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Mark Freestone21 May 2022

Why Do Psychopaths Exist? - Mark Freestone - #476

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24Insights

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 2

Myth Buster10:30

'Sociopath,' 'Psychopath,' and ASPD Are Not the Same Thing

Freestone untangles the messy overlap between three labels: psychopathy, the older 'sociopath' term, and the DSM's Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD). ASPD is so broadly defined (breaking the law repeatedly, lying, lacking remorse) that it's nearly circular and captures the vast majority of prisoners, while true psychopathy is a much narrower, rarer diagnosis.

  • ASPD was introduced in DSM-4 (1983) and focuses on behavior — lawbreaking, lying, parasitism — not the charm/manipulation core of psychopathy.
  • Roughly 80% of UK prisoners and 70% of US prisoners meet ASPD criteria.
  • Most psychopaths also meet ASPD criteria, but most people with ASPD are not psychopaths.
  • 'Successful psychopaths' are people who meet the traits but have never been caught or don't break the law.

Why did they break the law? Because they've got antisocial personality disorder. Why do they have antisocial personality? Because they broke the law. It doesn't…

Mark Freestone · 11:30
#diagnosis#terminology#aspd
Myth Buster37:30

Female Psychopaths Aren't Rare — They're Under-Diagnosed

Freestone challenges the idea that psychopathy is overwhelmingly male, arguing the standard checklist is biased toward male-typical antisocial behavior (fighting, criminal versatility), which inflates the male count and hides women who manipulate more covertly. UK data show a stark resourcing gap: 2,000 secure beds were commissioned for male psychopaths versus only 44 for women, of which just 15 were ever filled.

  • The psychopathy checklist leans on behaviors (violence, criminal versatility) that are statistically more common in men, biasing diagnosis rates.
  • UK secure hospital beds: ~2,000 for male 'dangerous and severe personality disorder' patients vs. 44 for women (only 15 ever filled).
  • Female psychopaths are stereotyped as more covertly/relationally aggressive — using others to do the 'dirty work' rather than acting directly.
  • Fewer people report being conned by a woman, making female psychopathic behavior easier to get away with.

If you are going to be a psychopath, make sure that you're a woman — it's going to be easier on average to get away…

Chris Williamson · 41:00
#gender#diagnosis#psychopathy

Explainer· 11

Explainer06:00

Why Pouring Empathy Into a Psychopath Never Fills Them Up

Not every psychopath is 'rock hard' and scary — some present as vulnerable and elicit a 'heart sink' sympathy response from staff. Freestone warns that this sympathy is a trap: their lack of self-esteem and identity is bottomless, so empathy poured in never resolves anything because they can't fundamentally change how they relate to others.

  • Some psychopaths (e.g. 'Danny' in his book) present as self-harming and pitiable rather than intimidating.
  • Clinicians can develop a 'dad-like' protective impulse toward younger, damaged-seeming patients.
  • That empathy is described as being 'drained' without ever filling the person up.
  • Freestone believes this dynamic contributed to chronic staffing shortages on his unit.

You never reach a point where that person has filled up with the empathy and the love that they need, because they haven't been able…

Mark Freestone · 06:30
#empathy#clinical-work#psychopathy
Explainer07:30

There Are Two Very Different Kinds of Psychopath

Comparing 'Paul' (a manipulative drug enforcer who got others to kill for him) with 'Danny' (who stabbed a priest who tried to help him), Freestone explains the old primary/secondary psychopath distinction dating to the 1940s-50s: primary psychopaths are outward-directed and narcissistic, while secondary psychopaths are inward-directed, using psychopathic traits to defend against guilt and shame.

  • Both men scored well above the US clinical threshold of 30 on the psychopathy checklist, yet present totally differently.
  • The distinction traces to Hervey Cleckley's 1940s work 'The Mask of Sanity.'
  • The old term 'sociopath' described a more violent, impulsive, uncontrolled presentation versus the classic charming psychopath.
  • Secondary psychopathy may function as a defense against shame and guilt from childhood.

To say that those guys are both defined by being psychopaths is I think totally unhelpful on a number of levels.

Mark Freestone · 08:30
#psychopathy-types#classification#history
Explainer12:30

The Brain Wiring Behind Psychopathic Callousness

Freestone explains that psychopaths show heritable 'callous unemotional traits' — a weaker neural connection between the prefrontal cortex and amygdala that blunts how they register disgust, fear and guilt. These traits can appear in children as young as seven, but only about 40% of those kids go on to become diagnosable psychopaths.

  • Callous-unemotional traits (lack of remorse, poor empathy) appear to be heritable.
  • The prefrontal cortex–amygdala connection that lets most people register fear/disgust/guilt is weaker or absent in psychopaths.
  • Traits can be visible in children as young as 7-9.
  • Only ~40% of children showing these traits progress to full psychopathy — genes aren't the whole picture.
#neuroscience#genetics#childhood
Explainer19:30

The Childhood Recipe That Produces a Psychopath

Asked what childhood would 'activate' psychopathic tendencies, Freestone lays out a pattern seen repeatedly: an absent or idealized father (often a con man himself) combined with an overbearing, over-enmeshed mother who won't let the child individuate. He notes the same pattern shows up in early psychoanalytic writing and in accounts of Ted Bundy's upbringing.

  • An absent father can become idealized in a child's memory because he 'wasn't around long enough to mess it up.'
  • The remaining parent (often the mother) sometimes seeks an inappropriately intimate, non-separable bond with the child.
  • Ted Bundy's mother reportedly described him as her 'angel boy' even during his trial; his grandfather was a dominating, paternalistic figure.
  • Being a psychopath doesn't automatically make someone a criminal — what pushes someone like Bundy to offend is a separate question.
#childhood#family#development
Explainer23:30

Why Evolution Might Have Kept Psychopaths Around

Freestone argues psychopathy may have been adaptive in resource-scarce ancestral societies like the Vikings, who repeatedly raided monasteries such as Lindisfarne. A psychopath's inability to feel shame or trauma after committing violence lets them do brutal, necessary things — and do them again — in service of the group, using pure 'instrumental reasoning' focused only on the end goal.

  • Societies with scarce resources historically parasitized others (e.g. Viking raids on Lindisfarne) to survive and expand.
  • Non-psychopaths who commit atrocities can develop PTSD and later be unable to access the memories.
  • Psychopaths don't experience that trauma because they don't register the acts as 'bad' — only as instrumental to a goal like protecting family.
  • Freestone calls this 'instrumental reasoning': the means are irrelevant, only the end matters.

If I have to kill some people to do that, it's not a problem, because that's what I want to do.

Mark Freestone · 25:30
#evolution#vikings#instrumental-reasoning
Explainer28:30

Psychopaths Are Terrible at Weighing Risk vs. Reward

Freestone explains that psychopaths systematically underweight risk in favor of reward — seen in poker (betting outrageously on bad hands) and in the Viking raiding example, where they'd never stop to consider that a target might now be defended. Research literature consistently shows this bias, which combined with their lack of post-trauma inhibition, made them effective repeat raiders.

  • Psychopaths will keep betting aggressively even on objectively bad cards.
  • They tend to fixate on potential reward and largely discount risk.
  • Research literature repeatedly confirms this skewed risk-reward calculation in psychopaths.
  • Because they don't get traumatized by past violence, they can repeat risky raids again and again.
#decision-making#risk#psychology
Explainer30:00

How Narcissism and Psychopathy Overlap — and Where They Diverge

Freestone discusses the concept of 'narcissistic supply' — most people need occasional validation to maintain self-esteem — and contrasts this with grandiose narcissists, who are so convinced of their own rightness that they don't need it. He notes heavy correlation between narcissism and psychopathy, and that societies seem to tolerate narcissistic traits only up to a point before they become intolerable.

  • 'Narcissistic supply' refers to the validation most people need to sustain self-esteem.
  • Grandiose narcissists are largely immune to needing that supply because they're convinced they're right.
  • There's significant clinical overlap/correlation between narcissism and psychopathy.
  • Society's tolerance for narcissistic traits shifts over time and has a ceiling.
#narcissism#psychopathy#personality
Explainer31:00

How Psychopaths Read Exactly What a Mark Wants

Referencing the classic 'sold the Eiffel Tower' con, Freestone explains 'malignant pseudo-identification' — a psychopath's technique of coldly observing what a person wants (not empathizing with them) and then promising exactly that to extract everything from them. Tony ran cons using inherited techniques and status symbols (a Mercedes, his own bank, tailored suits) learned from his con-man father.

  • Malignant pseudo-identification: identifying a mark's desire analytically, without emotional empathy, then exploiting it.
  • Tony maintained trappings of legitimacy (a chauffeur, a personal bank, expensive suits) obtained through fraud to make cons more convincing.
  • Once a victim believes they'll get a huge return, the psychopath 'takes them for everything they've got.'
  • The scam repeats over and over once the 'graft' (technique) is perfected.
#con-artist#manipulation#fraud
Explainer47:00

Why Psychopaths Treat Relationships as Currency, Not Connection

Freestone explains that psychopaths tend to be sexually promiscuous but still pursue quasi-marital relationships — not for random encounters, but to secure comfort, intimacy, money, and safety from a partner. He also notes how the criminal justice system often quietly obscures sexual elements of violent crimes when a murder charge alone is easier to prosecute.

  • Psychopaths are often highly promiscuous but still seek a stable-seeming 'partner' relationship.
  • The relationship serves instrumental goals (comfort, money, safety) rather than genuine attachment.
  • Prosecutors often charge only murder rather than murder-plus-rape to simplify a case, hiding a crime's sexual element from the public record.
  • Example given: a man who murdered a woman in a clearly sexualized way was convicted only of murder, shielding him from being classified as a sex offender in prison.
#sex#crime#criminal-justice
Explainer49:30

The Brutal Social Hierarchy Inside Prison Is Built on Your Crime

Once inside prison, nearly everything that defines status on the outside — money, job title, education — is stripped away, leaving the nature of your offense as the main marker of where you sit in the pecking order. Sex offenders sit at the bottom as vulnerable prisoners; violent offenders and murderers are near the top; robbers, because their crime unambiguously proves willingness to threaten violence, sit at the very top.

  • Once incarcerated, external status markers (wealth, job, education, family) become irrelevant.
  • Your offense type becomes the primary status marker inside prison.
  • Sex offenders are treated as the most vulnerable and are often segregated for protection.
  • Robbers rank highest because armed robbery is an unambiguous, provable act of violent threat — unlike some murder or attempted-murder cases.
#prison#social-hierarchy#criminal-justice
Explainer52:00

The Bizarre, Failed Attempts to 'Cure' Psychopathy

Freestone runs through decades of failed treatment experiments, including 1960s-70s 'naked encounter therapy' (patients undressing and discussing their offending together on the theory that stripping away social norms would reveal underlying goodness) and isolation tank therapy. Rather than helping, naked encounter therapy made participants more likely to be convicted of a violent offense afterward.

  • Naked encounter therapy had patients remove clothes and discuss their offending, theorizing social conditioning was the real cause of their badness.
  • The therapy backfired — participants were more likely to be convicted of a violent offense afterward.
  • Isolation tank therapy was also tried with poor results.
  • Freestone calls these efforts 'a pretty sad deal' overall — no treatment has reliably worked.
#treatment#history#psychiatry

Story· 8

Story02:30

The Psychopath Who Manipulated an Entire Prison Staff

Freestone recounts a charming, manipulative prisoner ('Paul') he bonded with over music, who gradually escalated small favors — starting with a request to bring in sheet music — while secretly running a sexual relationship with a female officer that other staff knew about but stayed silent on.

  • Psychopaths often present with 'glib and superficial charm' learned by aping others' behavior, not genuine rapport.
  • Manipulation starts small ('bring me some sheet music') before escalating.
  • Paul was having a covert relationship with a female officer; other staff knew and said nothing — a form of institutional collusion.
  • Paul was transferred out; the officer lost her job and narrowly avoided prosecution.

If you had to have a 10 minute conversation with the psychopath, you probably wouldn't notice anything untoward — you might actually find it quite…

Mark Freestone · 03:00
#manipulation#prison#case-study
Story13:30

The Neuroscientist Who Discovered His Own Brain Scan Was Psychopathic

Stanford neuroscientist James Fallon was running a study comparing brain responses of clinical psychopaths to a control group, using his own scan as a control when short on subjects. He found one scan showing virtually no neural activation to disturbing images — and it turned out to be his own. He had a successful career and family but privately struggled to understand normal social obligations.

  • Fallon measured brain activation (via imaging) in response to disturbing vs. pleasant images; psychopaths show markedly lower activation.
  • Fallon used his own scan to fill out his control group when short on volunteers.
  • His own scan showed the same near-zero activation pattern as his clinical psychopath subjects.
  • He didn't meet full clinical criteria for psychopathy because he lacked the behavioral/impulsive/antisocial traits (Factor 2) — only the callous-emotional side.

Oh my god, have I got this wrong? Is this person definitely in the control group?

Mark Freestone · 15:00

He never even got halfway up the scale — that wouldn't have been enough to diagnose him as a clinical psychopath.

Mark Freestone · 17:00
#neuroscience#case-study#famous-example
Story17:30

The Con Man Who Had No Core Personality At All

Freestone describes 'Tony,' a highly successful psychopathic con man in his late 40s who remained enmeshed with his mother — greeting her with lingering kisses that unsettled hospital staff. Tony's ability to con anyone came from having no fixed identity of his own; he could play any role because there was no 'real him' underneath.

  • 'Enmeshment' — never emotionally separating from a parent — recurs as a childhood pattern in psychopaths.
  • Tony and his mother's visits included behavior ('a lingering kiss on the lips') that distressed supervising nurses.
  • Tony struggled to answer basic questions about who he was as a person.
  • His skill as a con man came precisely from lacking a stable identity to defend.

He lacked a sort of core... for Tony there wasn't that sort of core. He didn't have anything that wasn't the slick con man.

Mark Freestone · 19:00
#case-study#identity#con-artist
Story22:00

'Sort It Out Yourself, It'll Make You Strong'

Freestone recounts a secondary psychopath ('Jim') who at 12 ran home from older boys chasing him, only for his father to refuse to help and shut the door — leaving Jim to be beaten right outside his own house. Jim remembers it not as cruelty but as his father toughening him up, a reframing Freestone says is a classic root of a psychopathic emotional defense.

  • Jim's father, wanting him tough, refused to intervene when older boys were about to beat him.
  • Jim was beaten right outside his family's front door.
  • Jim recalls the story as proof his dad made him strong, not as abandonment.
  • Freestone frames this as evidence for how emotional detachment ('acting like a psychopath') can be an adaptive defense against unbearable childhood events.

Nobody's got your back — that's an awful lesson to learn from that story.

Chris Williamson · 23:00

Better to distance yourself and act like a psychopath.

Mark Freestone · 23:30
#childhood#case-study#trauma
Story33:00

The Fake Police Officer Who Ran the Same Scam 600 Times

Freestone describes a psychopathic offender who posed as a police officer, convinced people to hand over jewelry and money for 'safekeeping' in a marked bag, then vanished with it. He had roughly 600 recorded instances of the identical scam on his record.

  • He impersonated police to gain access to victims' homes and valuables.
  • He used a fake 'police procedure' — sealing valuables in a marked bag before leaving.
  • Victims discovered the theft only after he'd gone, with no real officer to trace.
  • He had approximately 600 documented instances of the same con on his criminal record.

It's just unbelievable numbers of cons that have gone down in this kind — how good he must have been to identify people who would…

Mark Freestone · 33:30
#con-artist#crime#fraud
Story38:00

The Woman Who Tortured a Man to Death for 'Snitching'

Freestone details the case of Angela Simpson, a female psychopath who scored in the mid-to-high 30s on the checklist. After hearing a disabled acquaintance had informed on someone, she lured him to her flat, isolated him from his wheelchair, tortured him for seven to eight hours until he died, then had her partner help dismember and dispose of the body.

  • Simpson scored mid-to-high 30s on the psychopathy checklist — an unusually 'masculine-presenting' profile for a woman.
  • She used seduction to lure the victim and stranded his wheelchair away from him so he couldn't escape.
  • The victim was tortured (nails driven into his skull) over roughly seven to eight hours before dying.
  • She recruited her partner afterward to help dismember and dispose of the body; in TV interviews she showed no remorse and said she'd do it again.

Would you do it again? 'Hell yeah,' without a second's hesitation.

Mark Freestone · 42:30
#case-study#female-psychopath#true-crime
Story53:00

When Staff Let Psychopaths Take Over an Entire Ward

At Ashworth Hospital's personality disorder unit, staff were given more operational freedom with psychopathic patients — but misjudged what 'appropriate freedom' meant. An inquiry later found patients had manipulated staff into allowing a girl to be brought onto the ward for sexual abuse, revealing how completely psychopaths could compromise an institution when given latitude.

  • Ashworth Hospital's personality disorder ward gave staff more freedom in managing psychopathic patients.
  • A patient later alleged a girl was being groomed by ward patients to be brought in for abuse.
  • A formal inquiry found staff had been manipulated into effectively losing control of the ward.
  • Freestone connects this to broader risks of concentrating many psychopaths in one place.
#institutional-failure#manipulation#case-study
Story54:00

The Patient Whose Unpredictability Gave Freestone Nightmares

Asked about the scariest psychopath he's worked with, Freestone describes a patient with wildly inconsistent day-to-day presentation — pleasant and engaged one day, aggressively hostile the next, with a complex and partly unexplored offending history including a murder. The unpredictability itself, not overt menace, was what disturbed Freestone most, giving him recurring nightmares.

  • The patient could shift from pleasant and engaged to aggressively hostile between days, not gradually.
  • His offending history included a murder and several other attacks, with a possible unexplored sexual element.
  • Freestone compares the effect to trauma: unpredictable 'goalposts' are more destabilizing than consistent hostility.
  • The case caused Freestone recurring nightmares about the patient.

If someone is predictably nasty, that's actually okay. It's like trauma — if the goalposts change every time you come into work, it can really…

Mark Freestone · 55:30
#case-study#clinical-work#fear

Q&A· 1

Q&A00:30

How Mark Freestone Fell Into Working With Psychopaths

Freestone didn't set out to study psychopaths — he was a sociology PhD student researching anti-globalization protest through ethnography when a new maximum-security personality disorder unit opened at Broadmoor Hospital. He took the ethnography opportunity and stayed.

  • His PhD used ethnography — embedding with a group and observing them directly.
  • The unit was for people with 'dangerous and severe personality disorder,' a UK category covering psychopaths and complex high-risk personality disorders.
  • He describes his early career as 'running from pillar to post being manipulated and confused.'

I really did honestly fall into it.

Mark Freestone · 02:00
#forensic-psychology#career#psychopathy

Tool· 1

Tool56:00

Book: 'Making a Psychopath' by Mark Freestone

Freestone points listeners to his book, published by Penguin in the UK and Macmillan in the US, which covers several of the cases discussed in the episode (including Paul, Danny, and Tony) in an accessible, non-academic format.

  • Title: Making a Psychopath.
  • Published by Penguin (UK) and Macmillan (US).
  • Described as a short, non-heavily-academic read.
  • Contains the case studies referenced throughout the interview.
#book#recommendation

Takeaway· 1

Takeaway36:00

How Many Psychopaths Are Actually Out There

Drawing on the 2000 UK Adult Psychiatric Morbidity Survey (which included the PCL-SV screening tool), Freestone gives real prevalence numbers: roughly 0.4-0.6% of the UK household population, or about 1 in 170-200 people. The subset of 'successful psychopaths' who avoided long criminal careers had notably higher average household income than the general population, despite higher rates of bankruptcy and designer-drug use.

  • UK household survey estimate: ~0.4-0.6% prevalence, roughly 1 in 170-200 people.
  • 'Successful psychopaths' (no long criminal record) used more designer drugs and had more high-risk, high-reward jobs.
  • This successful group had significantly higher average household income than the general population.
  • They also declared bankruptcy more often than average, despite higher income.
#statistics#prevalence#research