MModern Wisdom
← All episodes
Mara Cortona08 October 2020

Why Is No One Talking About Existential Risk? - Mara Cortona - #229

0Frameworks
17Insights

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster04:30

Why Cockroaches and Sponges Are Winning the Longevity Game

Against the idea that advancing technology is the only path to species survival, Cortona points out that simple organisms like sponges (580 million years) and horseshoe crabs have vastly outlasted humans by staying organizationally simple. She argues humans couldn't successfully regress to that simplicity anyway, and that romanticizing 'natural' simplicity ignores how much suffering exists in the wild.

  • Sponges hold the current longevity record at roughly 580 million years, far beyond human civilization
  • Cockroaches and horseshoe crabs have persisted almost unchanged for millions of years via simple organization
  • Regressing to pre-technological simplicity isn't realistically achievable for humans
  • The natural world involves enormous suffering, making 'back to nature' romanticism misplaced
  • Technology is simultaneously the source of anthropogenic risk and the only defense against natural x-risk (asteroids, supervolcanoes)

There are many types of organisms that have been around in an almost unchanged state for millions and millions of years... cockroaches and horseshoe crabs…

Mara Cortona · 04:30

It's really unpleasant to be almost every other animal besides a human.

Mara Cortona · 06:00
#longevity#technology#nature#suffering

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take14:30

The Climate Guilt Trip on Individuals Is 'Gaslighty'

Cortona argues that pressuring individual consumers over recycling, meat-eating, or light bulbs is largely performative and misdirected, since real leverage sits with industrial emitters and the small number of people with actual power to change systems. She says persuasion campaigns targeting the masses won't move the needle — the average person globally is preoccupied with survival, not carbon footprints.

  • Individual consumer-blame framing around climate change is described as 'gaslighty'
  • Industrial and factory-farming emissions dwarf individual consumer choices
  • Most people globally are focused on survival (food, income), not climate mitigation
  • Persuading the masses isn't where the actual power to change outcomes lies
  • Change is more likely to come from technological elites making better options cheaper/easier than moral persuasion of the public

Some of it feels a little gaslighty with the climate change debate — this huge onus that's put on the individual consumer.

Mara Cortona · 14:30

It's fundamentally not going to happen — we're not going to sway the masses, and even if we did, that's not really where the power…

Mara Cortona · 15:30
#climate-change#individual-action#hot-take
Hot Take24:00

Bill Gates May Have Done More Good Than Anyone in History — By the Numbers, Not the Vibes

Cortona proposes re-examining morality by measured output and effectiveness rather than warm feelings or perceived saintliness. She uses Bill Gates as an example: not because he's personally saintly, but because his reach, resources, and strategic allocation of funds may make him one of history's most effective actors for good, arguing our 'moral feedback loop' instincts (smiling faces, mirror neurons) are miscalibrated for judging real-world impact.

  • Traditional morality/goodness intuitions are tuned to Dunbar-scale, face-to-face feedback loops (smiles, mirror neurons)
  • Cortona proposes assigning moral value based on actual measured outputs and efficacy, not intent or feeling
  • Bill Gates cited as possibly having done more measurable good than anyone in history, independent of personal 'saintliness'
  • Altruistic acts often serve the giver's own feel-good feedback rather than being the most effective use of resources

Bill Gates very well might be the most... might have done more good than anyone in history up to this point.

Mara Cortona · 24:30

Actually looking at outputs and efficacy and responding and assigning moral value based on real outputs... is considerably more fruitful than responding from any other…

Mara Cortona · 25:00
#effective-altruism#morality#bill-gates

Explainer· 6

Explainer01:30

X-Risk vs Global Catastrophic Risk: The Key Distinction

Mara Cortona draws the foundational distinction between existential risk (a risk to the entire species) and global catastrophic risk (mass die-offs and a drastically reduced quality of life without full extinction). She argues the latter is both more likely and more likely to happen sooner than the extinction-level events people usually picture.

  • X-risk = threat to the entire species' existence or potential
  • Global catastrophic risk = mass die-offs and low quality of life, not extinction
  • Global catastrophic risks are more probable and nearer-term than classic x-risks
  • Main anthropogenic x-risks: climate change, engineered pandemics/bioweapons, nuclear war
  • Natural background risks (asteroids, supervolcanoes, natural pandemics) are low probability given ~2000 centuries of human existence without one

Existential risk which is a risk to the entire species as we know it, and global catastrophic risks which perhaps wouldn't cause the entire extinction…

Mara Cortona · 01:30
#existential-risk#definitions#global-catastrophic-risk
Explainer09:00

COVID Proved Communication Is the Real Number-One X-Risk

Cortona reflects on how 2020 reshaped her thinking: the pandemic was well-modeled and expected, yet global response collapsed into politicization, hoax conspiracies, and inconsistent measures. She concludes that broken communication and collaboration systems underlie humanity's poor response to every other risk category.

  • Pandemics at this scale were known and modeled well before COVID-19 hit
  • The world was globally unprepared despite the foreknowledge
  • Conspiracy theories and politicization undermined simple, well-understood mitigation measures
  • Cortona now ranks communication/collaboration failure as the number-one underlying x-risk
  • An engineered pandemic with higher mortality in the next century would have been catastrophic given this same response pattern

I would say that the number one x-risk is really actually like communication — it kind of underlies our responses to all of the others.

Mara Cortona · 10:00

It's very clear that our communication and collaboration systems are very broken and things are heavily politicized.

Mara Cortona · 10:00
#covid-19#communication#pandemics#collaboration
Explainer11:00

Why Your Brain Can't Grasp Trillions of Future Lives

Cortona explains that human psychology evolved around the Dunbar number (~150 people) — the tribal-scale sphere of relationships and influence we're wired for. Modern 'force multipliers' mean our actions (a $5 malaria-net donation) can affect people worldwide, but our brains still relate to impact on a one-to-one, storytelling level, making it extremely hard to value the trillions of potential future lives at stake in x-risk decisions.

  • The Dunbar number (~150) is the historical tribal ceiling on relationships humans evolved to track
  • We never evolved a concept of 'force multipliers' — one action can now affect people globally
  • A $5 bed-net donation can be one of the most effective poverty/suffering interventions per dollar
  • We're moved by single relatable stories (e.g. one girl) even when resources could do more good spread differently
  • Valuing children is intuitive; valuing grandchildren, great-grandchildren, or trillions of unborn lives is not

We never had any concept of force multipliers like we have now... I'm still operating in terms of like expecting to see people, my community,…

Mara Cortona · 11:30
#psychology#dunbar-number#altruism#future-generations
Explainer39:30

Why Climate Change Got Politicized But Asteroid Defense Didn't

Cortona lays out a spectrum of risk-response effectiveness: asteroid defense succeeded because it emerged unpoliticized (helped by 90s pop culture and the Shoemaker-Levy comet impact on Jupiter) and one country largely solved it for everyone. AI and nanotech risk sit neglected at the other extreme because they haven't caught public attention. Climate change sits in a 'perfect storm' middle zone — heavily politicized, turned into a tribal weapon by people without real expertise on either side.

  • Asteroid risk response succeeded partly because it wasn't politicized and had strong pop-culture/scientific tailwinds (90s movies, Shoemaker-Levy comet hitting Jupiter)
  • AGI and nanotechnology risks remain neglected — low funding, low public salience
  • Climate change sits in the middle: massively visible but heavily politicized, becoming a tribal signaling tool
  • Many people commenting on climate lack real grounding in the underlying statistics, unlike the smaller AGI-control-problem discourse
  • Cortona is personally more concerned about the next pandemic than climate change

It hit at the right time... it wasn't politicized and everybody was able to get behind it.

Mara Cortona · 41:00

I'm much more concerned about the next pandemic personally than I am about climate change, and seeing our response to COVID-19 I'm even more so.

Mara Cortona · 43:00
#climate-change#politicization#risk-communication#ai-risk
Explainer47:30

The Prisoner's Dilemma and Why 'Tit for Tat' Beats Every Other Strategy

Cortona connects global cooperation failures to the prisoner's dilemma, referencing the famous 'tit for tat' strategy (from Anatol Rapoport) that starts from assuming good intentions and then mirrors whatever response it receives. She argues this is the most successful known algorithm for cooperative outcomes, but notes that real-world conditions (people fighting to survive) make pure cooperation hard to sustain past a certain threshold of anti-social behavior.

  • The tit-for-tat strategy (credited to Rapoport) starts with assuming the best intentions, then mirrors the other party's last move
  • It's described as the simplest and most successful known approach to the prisoner's dilemma
  • Real-world complexity limits how cleanly this applies at civilization scale
  • There's a tolerance threshold for anti-social behavior in a society before systemic collapse follows
  • Cortona ties this to needing both personal responsibility and accountability for concentrated power

The one algorithm that's so simple that is the most successful at returning the prisoner's dilemma is to start from a place of assuming the…

Mara Cortona · 48:30
#game-theory#cooperation#prisoners-dilemma
Explainer50:00

Toby Ord's Stark Odds: 1-in-3 This Century, 1-in-2 Ever

Referencing Toby Ord's 'The Precipice,' the hosts discuss his numerical estimate that humanity has a 1-in-3 chance of going extinct or permanently curtailing its potential within the next century, and a 1-in-2 chance across all of future time. Cortona says she wouldn't significantly revise these figures, though she flags that modeling struggles to account for humanity's adaptive capacity as well as unknown unknowns.

  • Toby Ord estimates a 1-in-3 chance of extinction or permanent civilizational curtailment within the next century
  • Ord estimates a 1-in-2 chance of the same happening ever (all future time)
  • Most existential risk is 'front-loaded' into the coming century
  • Cortona broadly agrees with Ord's numbers but flags that models can't fully capture human adaptive capacity (e.g. new ways of sourcing food/energy) or unknown unknowns
  • Modeling is inherently uncertain, which itself is more a stressor than a comfort for her

The chance that we go extinct or that we permanently mute our ability to reach our full potential as a civilization within the next century…

Chris Williamson · 50:00

It does seem to be heavily front-loaded — it does seem to be an absolutely critical juncture.

Mara Cortona · 51:00
#toby-ord#the-precipice#probability#existential-risk

Story· 3

Story27:30

The Bill Gates 2014 Pandemic-Warning Clip That 'Everyone Knew' About

Cortona recalls the viral 2020 resurfacing of a Bill Gates talk/documentary from 2014 warning that a global pandemic was the next big risk. The clip spread widely with people asking 'why didn't anyone know?' — her point is that the information already existed, it just lacked sufficient distribution and reach at the time.

  • Gates warned in 2014, on a well-produced documentary, that a pandemic was a top upcoming global risk
  • The clip went viral in 2020 with people shocked no one had warned them
  • Cortona's takeaway: the knowledge existed, distribution and reach were the missing piece, not foresight
  • This ties into her broader point that ideas spread through people with sufficient 'social equity' and reach

Everyone knew — like the only reason that you don't see that is because there wasn't sufficient reach on it.

Mara Cortona · 28:00
#bill-gates#pandemics#communication
Story28:30

Why George Floyd's Death Sparked a Movement When Other Deaths Didn't

Cortona uses the 2020 BLM protests as a case study in how social upheaval requires both a receptive public 'substrate' and an unpredictable triggering event. She notes George Floyd's death wasn't uniquely gruesome relative to other incidents, yet it ignited months of sustained protest — illustrating that movements need a chance 'cataclysmic' spark that can't be engineered or planned.

  • Public receptivity ('substrate') alone doesn't cause upheaval — it needs a triggering event
  • George Floyd's death was not the most gruesome or extreme example available, yet it triggered a summer-long movement
  • Protests persisted for months in some cities, showing the scale of the reaction
  • Cortona argues no amount of planning can manufacture this kind of cataclysmic trigger — it's largely luck/timing
  • This raises the open question of whether a similar spark will happen in time for x-risk awareness

That particular death was not the most gruesome or the most offensive or the most anything — so why did it spark off this summer…

Mara Cortona · 29:00

No matter how carefully you plan a rebellion or a revolution... there has to be some sort of natural cataclysmic event that happens right around…

Mara Cortona · 29:30
#social-change#protests#blm#collective-action
Story44:30

The 'Decolonize Mars' Article and James Lindsay's Takedown

A brief, memorable exchange about an article arguing that colonizing Mars echoes European colonization and its atrocities against native peoples. James Lindsay quote-tweeted it noting the absurdity of debating 'decolonizing' a planet that hasn't been colonized yet. Cortona uses it to segue into her broader (more optimistic) take on human nature and collaboration in space governance.

  • An article titled something like 'Decolonize Mars' argued Mars colonization echoes historical colonial atrocities
  • James Lindsay quote-tweeted it, noting the irony of debating decolonizing a planet not yet colonized
  • Cortona says she has more faith in human nature than the article implies
  • She connects this to space law being an under-governed 'commons' with little collaborative foresight currently ('kind of a shit show')

We're having a discussion about decolonizing a planet that we haven't even colonized yet.

James Lindsay (quoted) · 45:30
#space#mars#colonization#culture-war

Q&A· 2

Q&A17:00

Mara's Ranked Top 3 X-Risks: Unknown Unknowns, Bioweapons, Misaligned AI

Asked to rank the three biggest existential risks over the next century, Cortona puts 'unknown unknowns' at number three — risks we currently lack the language or concepts to even describe, the way bioweapons and nanotechnology were unthinkable 50-100 years ago. She then names bioweapons and misaligned artificial intelligence as the top two, notably leaving climate change out of her top three.

  • Number 3: unknown unknowns — risks we don't yet have the conceptual language for, as bioweapons/nanotech once were
  • Mitigating unknown unknowns means investing heavily in general R&D rather than a specific fix
  • Top risks named: bioweapons and misaligned artificial intelligence
  • Cortona explicitly says she wouldn't put climate change in her top three
  • She flags uncertainty over whether nanotechnology risk is truly distinct from misaligned AGI risk

I don't know if I would put climate change in the top three — I would say bioweapons and what's called misaligned artificial intelligence might…

Mara Cortona · 18:30
#ranking#ai-risk#bioweapons#unknown-unknowns
Q&A64:30

Does Working in X-Risk Feel Personally Crushing?

Asked whether she or her colleagues in aerospace/defense feel personal pressure knowing catastrophic risk could materialize within their own lifetimes, Cortona says most colleagues in academia, policy, and startup/VC aerospace circles are focused on short-term incentives like quarterly returns rather than existential stakes. She personally does feel the weight, but says relating to it consciously has brought her more peace over time, tying it to Jordan Peterson's idea of finding the biggest weight you can bear.

  • Most of Cortona's colleagues in aerospace/defense, academia, and VC are driven by short-term pressures (quarterly returns), not existential stakes
  • She observes younger people in the space seem to feel more of the existential pressure than older colleagues
  • She personally does feel the weight of x-risk work, but says engaging with it consciously has brought increasing peace, not more distress
  • Chris references Jordan Peterson's idea that life's purpose is to find the heaviest weight you can bear and bear it

As I learn how to relate to it, I become more and more at peace with it — it's the chop wood, carry water way…

Mara Cortona · 66:00

The purpose of life is to find the biggest weight that you can bear and bear it — we don't get our fulfillment from rights,…

Chris Williamson · 67:00
#personal-reflection#purpose#jordan-peterson

Tool· 1

Tool67:30

Where to Find Mara's Work: notnot.org and the Astropolitics Institute

Cortona points listeners to notnot.org, a think tank she founded two years prior that does writing and consulting on existential risk, and to the Astropolitics Institute, where she serves as executive director and helps publish the scholarly Journal of Astropolitics focused on space governance and related risk issues.

  • notnot.org — a think tank Cortona founded roughly two years before this interview, covering existential risk writing and consulting
  • The Astropolitics Institute — Cortona is executive director
  • The Institute publishes the scholarly Journal of Astropolitics, focused on space-based governance and risk issues

notnot.org is a think tank that I founded two years ago... at the Astropolitics Institute I'm the executive director there and we publish the scholarly…

Mara Cortona · 67:30
#resources#astropolitics#think-tank

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway54:00

"Crew, Not Cargo": Our Unique Burden as Conscious Beings

Invoking Daniel Schmachtenberger's line that humans are 'crew' rather than 'cargo' on spaceship Earth, the hosts discuss the unique burden of being the only known species capable of stepping outside its own programming and consciously steering its future — a responsibility no other animal, from lions to cephalopods, can bear.

  • Humans are the only known species capable of reflecting on and directing their own morality/behavior
  • Daniel Schmachtenberger's framing: humanity is 'crew,' not passive 'cargo,' on the planet
  • This puts sole responsibility for civilization's trajectory on humans, with no other species positioned to take over
  • The Fermi Paradox is raised as an open, unanswered question about other potential 'crews' in the universe

We're not just cargo on spaceship Earth, but we're crew. It is our job to try and move the direction of the only conscious beings…

Chris Williamson · 54:30
#responsibility#consciousness#daniel-schmachtenberger#fermi-paradox
Takeaway36:30

The 'Improvement Imperative': Why Self-Development Is a Civic Duty

The host shares his own concept, the 'improvement imperative' — the idea that becoming the best version of yourself is a duty because it positively influences everyone around you, cascading outward like a 'positive pathogen.' He uses Joe Rogan as an example: regardless of specific controversial opinions, the sheer reach of thousands of hours of long-form conversation has plausibly opened huge numbers of people's minds toward more nuanced thinking.

  • The 'improvement imperative': personal self-development is framed as a duty, not just self-interest, because it ripples outward
  • Improving yourself raises the people around you, who in turn raise others — a positive-sum, pathogen-like spread
  • Joe Rogan cited as an example of outsized positive influence via reach (thousands of hours reaching billions of listens), independent of agreeing with all his views
  • The same logic applies at small scale too — e.g. a single parent raising well-adjusted children counts as meaningful contribution

It is your duty to be everything that you can, the reason being that you can impact the lives of the people around you.

Chris Williamson · 36:30
#self-development#influence#joe-rogan